Posts by moggy lover

39

Do you remember giving talks?

by klydia in

jw
friends

i'm trying to remember the process for giving a talk.

i remember getting a slip with a topic on it, but what else was on that slip?

did it tell you what scriptures you should cite, or what book the talk was based on?

Ugh!! Yep I remember it well. The last talk, [no 5? 6?, whatever]was usually from the "Aid" book [mid 70s] and the Minnistry school instructor was particuklarly hard on those brothers who gave this talk. Anything less than perfection was regarded as a fair target for criticism, despite the fact that the instruxtor was himself an inadequate speaker. It appears that his best "perk" was that he could publically council speakers from the platform.

Eventually, I rotated into the position of instructor. I found that there were those who enjoyed giving talks, and there were those that absolutely loathed it. There were the "naturals" and there were the "strugglers". So some indeed benefitted from council, but others required encouraging, not council. Sadly there was no such set up available.

To be frank, I did'nt like giving council from the platform, although I had to do it I felt it to be too intrusive. Oddly enough, though, sometime in the middle of my term, as a result of a change announced at a District Assy they removed this [wisely, I think] and council was to be administered in private, after the meeting. The problem was however trying to catch the speakers afterwards, since most darted out immediately after the closing song. For which I did'nt blame them, since with two meetings, it was always pretty late, especially in winter.

All-in-all, though, I felt that the Misistry School [do they still call it that or what?] was an excellent idea, and with a few humane adjustments could be made better. Pressure to give talks I think, should be eased. Some people are just not the speaker type. Maybe their gifts lie in other areas, like music. Why not get those who were good at this to sing, Kingdom Songs [of course. No Britney Spears thank you] rather than speak. And the ridiculous subterfuge behind the sisters giving talks to other sisters was, I though being silly. Since the target audience is the whole congregation anyway, not just the other sister, I saw no difference in having the sisters talking directly to the target audience. Again, oddly enough, many of the Elder's wives made better gifted speakers than their hubbies.

Cheers

50

JW's and John 5:23

by UnDisfellowshipped in

has anyone on this board ever used john 5:23 when talking to jw's?.

unfortunately, one of my friends is currently in a "bible" study with the jw's (and has been since last year).

i asked my friend to ask the jw what john 5:23 means, so my friend did ask the jw who was conducting the "bible" study.

moggy lover

Just a brief remark: I did a search in the WT CD Rom 04 and came up with nothing. There is a quote from Jo 5:22 then it skips to Jo 5:24

Dont hold your breath waiting for some earth-shattering information. I seem to remember being taught, as far back as the 60s, to say that as a representative of Jujuber Jesus was deserving of "respect" [I don't remember the WT actually admitting to the fact that Christ was worthy of "honour"] while He was here on earth. To the best of my recollection they do not apply this verse to Christ today. Naturally they can't when they openly boast [In the Revelation book] that even in their songs which they use in their "worship", the songs are weighted fully in favour of Juu etc to the detriment of the Son. Russell's song book was more objective, with as many applying to the Son as the Father.

Evidently to the WTS, Jesus' words at Jo 5:23 apply to the Jews who, by nailing Jesus to the wooden thingee, failed to give Him the respect He deserved. But my information may be out of date.

Cheers

12

New World or New System of Things

by *jeremiah* in

hi everyone, i'm seeking clarification again.

when i was in the borg, the phrase the wt used to call paradise was "the new system of things".

i've read a lot of posts on here and i've seen a lot of "new world" and i never see "the new system of things" phrase.

moggy lover

I can see at least two reasons behind this subtlety of expression.

1 It gives the R&F membership a veneer of scholastic integrity. Upto 1950, when the first edition of the NWT of the "Christian Greek Scriptures" was published, the general expression was the "New World" when referring to the post-A structure of society. Then Freddy Franz the "oracle" of God discovered an anomaly.

There are two Greek words used in the NT to discuss a concept such as this: "Kosmos" which he decided to "translate" as "world", and "Aion" which he tabbed with the expression "system of things" Now he found that when references to the Post-A time were made in the NT, the word used was "aion" not "kosmos" [check out Lu 18:30 etc] So Voila! Out went the expression "New World" and say hellow to "New System"

The ironic bit was that Franz discovered this anomaly too late. The New "World" Translation had already been published. So there we were like a bunch of gits, prattling on about the "New System" while at the same time flogging the New "World" Translation at the doors.

2 It keeps the faithful on their toes. Blues Brother will bear me out in this, but back in the 60s and 70s you had to keep on your toes to show that you were up with the latest '' truths'' and this meant remembering all the subtle shifts in verbal nuances. If some unfortunate specimen, in a lapse of judgment at an otherwise boring WT study, mentioned the word "world" when he should have said "system" you can bet your boots that he would be stared at like he was a skunk at a family picnic. And that would be the only bit that was remembered at the study. Such peer tactics ensured he never repeated such a clanger.

BTW, I remember about the late 70s the WTS making quite a hullabaloo over the word "Armageddon" insisting on printing it as "Har-Mageddon" This caught the more zealous ones off guard. Could'nt tell if it was a one-off thing or a new "Shift" in vocabulary.

With many of their best writers either pushed out or voluntarily leaving, and with a dearth of deep theological thinkers left behind, this verbal rectitude seems to have blurred, and guards, both theological and linguistic, have dropped.

In other word, no body gives a stuff.

Cheers

17

It's my JWD birthday!!

by serendipity in

jw
friends

since i've been on jwd for a year, i thought i'd post about changes in my life.

and can you believe it: despite turning my back on the org, i haven't turned into a drug-addicted, alcoholic, crack ho .

in my first post, i still identified myself as a liberal jw.

moggy lover

Congratulations !! Be well. And may your spiritual odyssey be as rewarding and enchanting as the very first time you held the magical wonder that is your child in your arms. Be at peace within yourself and with whomever you have come to know as the God of all Things,and go confidently through the byways of life, taking each pitfall as a challenge, and each challenge as a stepping stone to victory. The path that has no obstacles leads nowhere.

Frankly, I am glad none of us has all the answers. Since each has some of the answers, it means we need each other all the time. You have helped us and influenced us in ways you will never fathom, but which we will remember and treasure.

And remember Moggy's First Rule of Human Dynamics:

Those who can - do. Those who cannot - preach!

Cheers

37

What's Your All Time Favorite Movie & TV Show?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i love goodfellas with robert deniro and joe pesci.

in the 80's i faithfully watched taxi with a great ensemble cast featuring marilu henner, judd hirsch and of course, reverend jim.

moggy lover

Favourite TV series: The Persuaders, the old Tony Curtis-Roger Moore series that was on... when? mid-70s? something like that.Favourite current series: Medium. Cant remember the name of the knockout lass who plays the lead though,...... Something Arquette is it?

Favourite Movie? hmmmm... hard.... I'd probably say "My Fair Lady"

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

MJ: Yep. I certainly would. Its an excellent book for textual research, done by one who is a leader in his field. Metzger was on the original panel that translated the NIV. It is written from an evangelical persepective, in that the author upholds the inerrancy of scripture and the integrity of the NT text.

Its format is similar to that in the site we have already mentioned, ie the terry/textual commentary site, but the book is far more comprehensive, and weighed down with much more textual information.

A WARNING, though:

The book does not come cheap, unfortunately. I got mine at a discount because I was at Bible college at the time studying NT Greek, and even that cost a pack !!

You should be able to obtain a copy at any fairly well stocked Christian bookstore, or you may visit the Inter-Varsity Fellowship website at: www.intervarsity.org

Hope that helps.

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

Incidently that site mentioned by both of you, Listener and MJ "ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm" is an excellent one I have added it to my favourites for future reference.

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

As much as one hates to admit it, it does appear that at this text, the NWT has preserved the better attested reading than the KJV and those versions that have been derived, spiritually, at least, from it.

It appears that "Hurisko" - to find, discover, etc [cf the expression Eureka! which is related] was the original reading.Prof Bruce Metzger, writing in the "Textual Commentary on the Greek NT" [pg 706] endorses this reading as the most ancient. It therefore woud have been the original.

Of the three weightiest mss available, two, [from the 4CAD] the Sinaitic and the Vatican have "Hurisko", while the third, the Alexandrian [from the 5CAD] has "Kata-kaio" [ kaio=to burn, + kata an intensifying pronoun] hence=to consume fully with fire, etc. It is this reading that the KJV adopted, and the versions that follow in its wake have done the same.

The strange thing is that "katakaio" as a variant reading was introduced so early in textual transmission, hence the confusion.

Freddy was following along with the WH text which was superior in textual accuracy than that underlying the KJV, hence his reading. Maybe there is a place for him somewhere after all.

Cheers

5

Hebrews - God's Rest?

by TheListener in

hebrews - entering god's rest??

what is meant by and how do we enter gods rest?

hebrews the 3rd and 4th chapters tell us about gods rest.

moggy lover

Indeed the concept of God's "rest" has interesting possibilities in the theological field of study, and various interpretations are probably capable of being adduced from a reading of Hebrews 4. For what its worth I can share what I learned a while back when doing a group study on Hebrews. The viewpoint is evangelical and protestant, so if you are Catholic or SDA you may have a different point of view.

The writer of Hebrews was intimately tied up with the OT experience, and its weight on his theology is often apparent. If he was familiar with the Greek LXX which would have been available to him in the 1CAD, he would be aware of certain interlinking concepts. For instance, the LXX includes notable passages where the word for "rest" [greek kata-pausis] in connection with Israel's possession of the land is clearly paralleled with the word for "inheritance" [kle-ronomia] - DT 3:18-20, 12:9-11

Moses showed that for Israel, their "rest" was their "inheritance"

In the same way it may be natural to suppose that the writer of Hebrews was using "rest" as a funtional equivalent for a Christian's "rest" or "inheritance" That Christians are such "heirs" he has already affirmed at 1:14. The writer of Hebrews ' later call to patience that the reader may receive "what He has promised"is followed by an assurance that "in just a little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay" " [10:36,37]

So God's "rest" is the garcious granting of a heavenly "inheritance" just to believers today, as His "rest" towards Israel was the gracious granting of a physical "inheritance" of the land of Israel. Unfortunately, the Israelites failed to "enter the Rest of God" [ie gain the permanent inheritance of the land] because, as you rightly pointed out, a lack of faith. [3:19]

But as the context of Hebrews shows, the writer here is more concerned with the here and now, and how the "rest" applies to Christians and a future "rest" for God's people [4:10] In 4:2, the writer points out that for his readers to profit from this invitation to enter God's rest, the reader had to "faith it" ie, "believe". In verse 3, he calls "us" the "hoi pisteu-santes" -"we, the believing ones" The Present tense participle, could suggest a perseverance in excercising this belief

It appears that belief, or faith, on the part of God's people, remains the prerequisitefor entrance into "God's rest" It is true that the writer enriched his thought of God's "rest" by alluding to the great Sabbath rest at the time of creation with the "rest" that the Israelites missed while in the desert, causing them a delay of a generation in inheriting portions of the Promised Land. But the continuation of that "rest" till now and until the consumation of all things, suggests God's gracious and continuous invitation to those who would take hold of the divinely authorized unheritance which is beckoning to those who "hear"

The "today" of verse 7, in ch 4, becomes the "today" of each person ever priveliged to read these words of Hebrews

Hope this helps

Cheers

16

Holy Spirit--The Force Behind the Coming New Order--PDF!

by Atlantis in

click on the link below and when the next page appears scroll down to the bottom and look to your [ left ] for [ seconds ] to be counting down to zero.

when the numbers reach zero a large [ yellow and orange button ] will appear with the word (download).

click on that button to open or save the file.

moggy lover

Indeed I recall less than fond memories regarding this book. As Atlantis has pointed out the book was first published in 1976, the year after the Great Disappointment of 1975. Despite all the gainsaying on the part of the WTS regarding what was and what was not said about 1975, there was an inexpressible sense of excitement and anticipation regarding this date on the part of us R&F members.

In that year we had at least three "special" talks, sometimes given in large cinema halls, and the two head honchos of the WTS, Nathan Gnaw, and Freddy Flintstone made well publicized visits to this country. The excitement was palpable, especially among the elderly, who like Charlie Moore, now simply a forgotten footnote to the lamentable catalogue of WT deceit, had been in the "troof" since the early 1900s. They had been hoping to pull themselves into the new world/order/system [the WTS simply could'nt decide which was which] even with at least one chariot wheel.

Then came 1976, and what do we get? The new world/etc etc ??... nah... instead we get........................................

Another publication !!!

The Holy Spirit. Intersperced throughout the book are curious references to the Holy Spirit. He is, for instance called "a force, not a person" [pg 12], an"impersonal active force of God" [pg 14] And in this Freddy Franz, presumably the anonymous author of this book, since he was dubbed the "oracle of god" may have anticipated George Lucas and his "May the force be with you" aphorism.

The most disgusting filth attributed to the Holy Spirit is however reserved for ch 8, where He is called the spirit of "truth"..... TRUTH???? The WTS leadership would'nt know truth even if it belted them in the rectums. Evidently this spirit of troof "revealed" to the WTS in 1919, that Christ had begun to reign in 1914 [pg 148], we know this to be the basest kind of falsehood, since the WTS was publishing information about Jesus reigning since 1874 right up to 1929 !! Like Milojan Djilas, noted ex-communist apologist, in order to gain the future, one must first rewrite the past.

The WTS was still holding out the carrot of the new world/system/order thingee in the concluding pages of this publication, because how could we resist such exhortations as this:"Forward then, unitedly, O remnant, and "great crowd" ! The invisible force that is behind God's coming new order is with you.. So count yourselves happy, highly favored!" [pg 162] With empty retoric such as this, is it any wonder the WTS allowed the book to go out of print as quickly as possible?

Their attitude seems to be.... ignore it, maybe it will go away. Not a chance, mate, not when Atlantis can getcha with your pants down.

Thanks again, Big A, may you get to heaven one second before the devil knowsabout it.

Great stuff, as usual.

Cheers